Author Topic: If you were the producer for the next KD album...  (Read 14585 times)

Offline Grace

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If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« on: December 14, 2006, 08:30:08 am »
... what's something you would like to see more of, less of, or totally different, on the next release?

For instance: Matt is an incredible drummer, but he's not used to the full extent of his capabilities - except for in live situations. I would like to see more of complex musical arrangements and King utilizing the skills of his musicians to a greater extent, like on earlier releases. The songs that have stood out lately are the ones with rhythm changes and more interesting musical performances, including the harmonizing vocal lines ("Spirits", "Slippery Stairs" et al). To me King Diamons was always as much about the clever musical arrangements, as about the lyrics and the vocals - these days it seems the focus is all on the lyrics.

I would like to see more of actual riffs. Not just riffs that follow the vocal lines, and the other way around (like "Blood to Walk" and most others on later releases). I miss strong riffage, like "Mother's Getting Weaker" and "Family Ghost". Just muted chords that accentuate the vocals are getting a little played.

I would like to see less of King's "normal" voice, as I think it is his high pitch voice that is his trademark. We rarely get any longer lines all sung in skyhigh falsettos anymore. Maybe Livia could "take over" that role full time?

I would like to see more of all you guys and some creative input, and not just the fanboy mentality of "I think KD rocks because he rocks and there is nothing in the whole wide world I would want any different! \m/ :fingers: \m/"

THAT is getting a little played, too.

Just like when you have a favorite football team, or hockey team, there are always things you wish they did differently.

What do YOU wish KD did differently?


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Offline lightninfeet

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2006, 08:35:23 am »
I gotta be honest...I could use a little more cowbell. \m/
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Offline Tri Landau

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2006, 09:53:35 am »


I would like to see less of King's "normal" voice, as I think it is his high pitch voice that is his trademark.



I agree with that. :cool:

Offline vonseux

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2006, 05:00:39 pm »
I gotta be honest...I could use a little more cowbell. \m/


oh, that's soooo middle-ninities      =P


(Cowbell really rocked on Into the Unknow)

Offline paulcoz

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2006, 12:51:33 am »
Quote
"I would like to see more of complex musical arrangements and King utilizing the skills of his musicians to a greater extent, like on earlier releases. The songs that have stood out lately are the ones with rhythm changes and more interesting musical performances, including the harmonizing vocal lines ("Spirits", "Slippery Stairs" et al). To me King Diamons was always as much about the clever musical arrangements, as about the lyrics and the vocals - these days it seems the focus is all on the lyrics."

Yes. King's best songs are characterised by lots of melodic riffs, harmonic parts and vocal layers, blistering solos, key changes (inc. unusual chord progressions) and tempo changes. Energy (speed), fluidity. Heavy! Complexity, progression.

Slow, chord-chugging songs with minimal arrangements (most of Black Devil with the exception of the last solo, many verses and choruses on The Graveyard) rarely cut it (IMO).

Quote
"I would like to see more of actual riffs. Not just riffs that follow the vocal lines, and the other way around (like "Blood to Walk" and most others on later releases). I miss strong riffage, like "Mother's Getting Weaker" and "Family Ghost". Just muted chords that accentuate the vocals are getting a little played."

I've been saying this for years (and totally agree with you). You can't compare actual -riffs- like the verse in Welcome Home (melodic) with moments like the chorus of Trick or Treat on The Graveyard (slow, chord heavy). Muted chords are great but they should be used sparingly (interspersed with melody to accentuate heavy dominant beats - 'Don't touch me, I'll break it, I've got the teapot, I'll do it anyway') - if used too much, they tend to slow the pace of a song down to a crawl and it loses energy*. I've said before that I'd like King to write faster songs, which translates to more beats per second - more melodic riffs, less chords.

* The verse in The Wheelchair ('What you did to my mother, trying to kill me inside of her') is a good example, as is most of Miriam and the verse in The Storm - so slow and dated. Slippery Stairs is very good (lots of melody), as are LOA House and A Secret (for the same reason).

Quote
"I would like to see less of King's "normal" voice, as I think it is his high pitch voice that is his trademark. We rarely get any longer lines all sung in skyhigh falsettos anymore. Maybe Livia could "take over" that role full time?"

King has said he doesn't make a conscious decision to use his voice a certain way - he just does what he thinks suits the songs. Although I would also like more falsettos, his choices should be respected.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 01:06:38 am by paulcoz »
Paulcoz.

Offline vonseux

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2006, 03:06:17 am »
palcoz, you did a nice writting :)


but i like to know the oppinion (once again) about the relation between music and lyrics. We know that the new album is already recorded, except for the vocals (wich are not even written) so

how much do this affect the process of composition? Do anyone know if it was like this in the past?

And if the new album rocks, we shall do much more credit to Andy (who's the producer)

Offline CorpseWithoutASoul

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2006, 08:47:24 am »
Okay I'll bite.

I stated on another thread that I felt that KD albums have gotten better over the last ten years and I meant it. Compare the production and song structure on The Graveyard with that seen on The Puppet Master and it illustrates my point. That being said, there is always room for improvement.

I agree with pretty much everything that's already been mentioned here. I think one of the main problems is that in the latter half of KD's career most all of the songwriting is done by King himself. This is NOT a knock against King but I really think that he needs to allow more input from the other band members. I have always thought of King as a master conceptualizer and songwriter. But after 11 concept albums it has become a little formulamaic. He really ought to start relying more on the other band members input for songwriting. Much of the music on TPM was written by Andy and look at the result, it's the best KD album in many years. Andy of course has always been a huge asset to the group and the current line up with Mike Wead, Hal Patino, and Matt Thompson is IMO the strongest since the glory days of Abigail and "Them".

What I'd like to see is more of a cohesive group effort on the next album. King should experiment and see what the guys can come up. How about a compostion from Mike Wead or a bass driven bridge from Hal for a change? King Diamond is a group of accomplished musicians not just a one man show. I understand that most of the music for the new album has already been written and that many of the tracks are done by Andy so that sounds very promising. I'd guess I'd just like to see more input from the rest of the band in the future.

Offline Grace

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2006, 10:01:44 am »
Yeah, exactly... King Diamond used to function as a band, despite the name, and the musical efforts were mutually conceived. Even though King and Andy still wrote all the music (well, most of it), the band rehearsed the songs and made the arrangements together. I have a feeling that these days King sits all alone in his little studio chopping away at his little guitar, while coming up with song melodies. He may be a half-decent rhythm guitarist, as far as muted chords go (a la "Voices from the past"), but he's no La Rocque. The same goes for the drums and bass. Let these skilled musicians take an idea and run with it. I totally agree with the sentiment that this is the best lineup since "Them", and that they could, given the opportunity and free reins to do so, kick the songs up a few notches. ALl King needs, is to show a little more faith in his band. Musicians with confidence will put a little extra spice into their performances, and I think that is what we need. I can pretty much hum every guitar solo between "Fatal Portrait" and "Conspiracy", tap any weird off beat from any of the earlier albums on my desk with a pencil and a ruler, but I will be damned if I can remember much that stood out on later releases (except from some very inspired Wead-work on a couple of songs on "Abigail 2" and some good band-energy on "Voodoo" - "Loa House" and "One Down - Two to Go" in particular).

King has always had excellent ideas for his songs, but whereas he had "help" back in the day to realize his musical visions, it seems that he is running a one-man show these days instead. I still think most King Diamond albums are heads and shoulders above most other metal releases out there, but I do miss that certain oomph to pummel me into submission and awe before the genius of it all.

What Paulcoz wrote about the muted chords that just work to accentuate the verse vocals, slowing down the songs to a crawl, is exactly spot on. Melodic vocals always sound better when balanced against a strong riff, or weighed against a more defined musical background, than just riding along with the guitars, like some tug boat pulling a slow cruiser behind it. King's vocal lines, when sung in his "normal" voice, are much less melodic than what he utilizes in high pitches instead. I think the beautiful contrasts between King Diamonds melodic falsetto vocal lines and the complex riffs was what put King Diamond above the rest of the metal field back then ("Sleepless Nights", "A Visit from the Dead", "Family Ghost", "Welcome Home" etc).

To me, "The Eye" was the turning point as it had simpler compositions and relied more heavily on straightforward beats and muted chords. Remember, the band situation was in turmoil at this point, and I think it shows. Hearing "Eye of the Witch" live these days is MILES better than the actual studio recording of said song. I know for a fact what wonders Andy has pulled out of bands like Evergrey (who never really sounded very good before Andy got hold of them), and I hope King gives him the room to do the same with the new KD album. A producer's role is to be the boss of the recording, to know what works and what doesn't. You have to trust your producer to work his magic on your ideas. Maybe there is a conflict of authority when King and Andy are working together these days, as artist and producer I mean?

From what I know of drummer Matt Thompson he could add a LOT to the new material if he was given the chance. Remember how excited he was to play the old KD stuff, because of the challenge? He practiced the ending of "Invisible Guests" until his hands hurt to get the damn syncopations and off beats just right. A guy with that dedication and musical understanding could probably be used better than to just be called in on the day of the recording. Patino is more than accomplished on bass, and Wead's guitarwork (which I have enjoyed since the days of Hexxenhaus) deserves a brighter spot in the sun. Let them shine.

Sound-wise and style-wise, I agree with Corpse Without a Soul that the albums have gotten better over the past ten years, but they are still not what they could be. "The Graveyeard" was King's absolutely worst album, and the ones that followed were not that much better. The fact that King knows this himself is reflected in the songs he chooses for his live sets; not too many from "HoG", "Graveyeard", "Spider's Lullabye" or others on there. I don't think any of us expect a return to the sound of "Abigail" or "Them" - that is not really the issue - but at least put the oomph and the melody and the energy back into the music again. You guys have been to the live shows. You know what a difference it is when the band plays "A Mansion in Darkness" as opposed to "Spare this life". One puts a grin on all their faces, and the other is just played from point A to B, with less bells and whistles.

I am happy to see that you guys care enough about King Diamond, as a band, to actually throw your two cents in there. There is nothing wrong with loving and adoring your favorite band, but remembering why you did so in the first place can hopefully inspire other fans to discover KD and hopefully also remind King of where his greatness lies. Without input from others it's easy to become stagnant and one-track-minded.

I will always hold KD in the absolutely highest regard, and I will always buy the albums and go to the shows, no matter what. But just like when the Rangers are playing a sucky game, I will throw a Big Mac at the coach and yell at him to bench Malik.

Know what I mean?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2006, 02:29:32 am by Bub »
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Offline Beelzebub

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2006, 10:39:04 am »
I'd love to read what you just wrote, but the bold font hurts my eyes.
Is it too much to ask not to do that anymore?
thanks.
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Offline vonseux

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2006, 04:44:21 pm »
 :king:

Offline Jackal

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2006, 11:28:06 pm »
I absolutly agree 100% with you, Grace.

Mikkey Dee mentioned this as why he left the band in the first place. King wanted them to be backround / studio musicians as opposed to band members.

I really think that is what happend. Back in the Fatal Portrait - Conspiracy days, the band had more say in the song writing. Most of the varius bassists/guitarists/drummers during the Spider's lullabye - House of God period name's I can barelly recall. They are so generic ( no offense to them ) and bland that they must be studio musicians. I really think that was the problem ( aside from the production ) of this "dark period" for the King Diamond band.

You're absolutly right about the solos and the odd drum beats too, Grace.I can mouth every single solo and odd drum piece from Fatal portrait, Abigail and Them, and most on Conspiracy. For example, I can hum out every "Dressed in White" Solo and an odd drum piece from the middle of "The Candle" where the drums follow the guitar for one fill. I don't think it's just the fact that Mikkey Dee is the best drummer King has had, I think the others never really had the chance to shine.

Though I do love The Eye and Spider's Lullabye for their atmosphere, Voodoo for it's pummeling thrash and House of God for it's story - something is missing from each of the albums after "Conspiracy" and I think it's because the other musicians aside from King and Andy don't have enough say.

I think the same thing plagued Mercyful Fate in the 90's, but not as bad.

Offline Tri Landau

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2006, 01:41:32 am »
the other musicians aside from King and Andy don't have enough say.

I think the same thing plagued Mercyful Fate in the 90's, but not as bad.
Maybe the others just don't have anything to say.

Offline Count Jonah

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2006, 02:49:03 am »
Awww, I love when this topic comes up. I use to have my opinions...my own long list of demands...but I realize now that when bands just do it for the fans, you are losing a lot of artistic passion and innovation. Passion I believe is were all the emotion in King’s music comes from. So if I were producer, I think I would just say, go in and don’t think about the money or recapturing that classic sound, just go in there and do what you think will make a great sounding album. If King can’t be excited about the music he makes then what chance is there that the music will actually be exciting? To me, Time is THE best MF album of the 90's, and that is because they went in there without all these outside expectations and worries.
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Offline Lafeys Ghost

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2006, 04:23:23 am »
I would love to hear more complex music and riffs just as long as everyone doesn't turn it into a big clusterfuck of distortion and drum solos (which I doubt would happen, King usually keeps that under control), and I would love to hear lots more falsetto as well

Offline King

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2006, 05:36:35 pm »
, and I would love to hear lots more falsetto as well

along with having more falsetto,would like some kool effects,like echos,laughs,would like to hear some good guitar/bass solos/riffs,am hoping this is a scariest story everr

Offline mario

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2006, 11:31:50 pm »
I´d like to hear more falsetto and faster music!!! \m/

Offline leevil

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2006, 06:21:47 am »
I gotta be honest...I could use a little more cowbell. \m/
Its funny you said that cause I was thinking about the ride bell that mikkey used to hit all the time, like in mansion in darkness.

Offline Tri Landau

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2006, 06:42:13 am »
Its funny you said that cause I was thinking about the ride bell that mikkey used to hit all the time, like in mansion in darkness.
That sounded good :king:

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2006, 08:39:42 am »
If I had the task of producing the next King Diamond album...

:gah: I think I would sit down, have a strong mixed drink, and then politely quit producing Kings album, (because I am NOT currently a producer) and go back to my day job!!!   :)

I dunno.. just like I dont like people who dont know what they're doing, telling me how to do my job, I wouldnt want to do that to someone else. Not to mention I might end up blowing out the studio equipment..nope no producing for me..hahaha!!!

I like pleasant (or unpleasant) suprises when I buy a Cd.. What I mean is, If feel the need to make a Cd I will..maybe I will even put a cow bell in it!!!  :)
 
I as well like cowbells..and violins ofcourse ; )

Offline The Winnipeg Warrior ®

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2006, 12:21:36 pm »
... what's something you would like to see more of, less of, or totally different, on the next release?

For instance: Matt is an incredible drummer, but he's not used to the full extent of his capabilities - except for in live situations. I would like to see more of complex musical arrangements and King utilizing the skills of his musicians to a greater extent, like on earlier releases. The songs that have stood out lately are the ones with rhythm changes and more interesting musical performances, including the harmonizing vocal lines ("Spirits", "Slippery Stairs" et al). To me King Diamons was always as much about the clever musical arrangements, as about the lyrics and the vocals - these days it seems the focus is all on the lyrics.

I would like to see more of actual riffs. Not just riffs that follow the vocal lines, and the other way around (like "Blood to Walk" and most others on later releases). I miss strong riffage, like "Mother's Getting Weaker" and "Family Ghost". Just muted chords that accentuate the vocals are getting a little played.

I would like to see less of King's "normal" voice, as I think it is his high pitch voice that is his trademark. We rarely get any longer lines all sung in skyhigh falsettos anymore. Maybe Livia could "take over" that role full time?

I would like to see more of all you guys and some creative input, and not just the fanboy mentality of "I think KD rocks because he rocks and there is nothing in the whole wide world I would want any different! \m/ :fingers: \m/"

THAT is getting a little played, too.

Just like when you have a favorite football team, or hockey team, there are always things you wish they did differently.

What do YOU wish KD did differently?




IMO.....KD should employ the services of an outside producer and engineer for a change. You can only go so far in the same musical and thematic direction (no matter the genius).....and then risk becoming stale, irrelevant and formulaic. Take Iron Maiden using Martin Birch.....and Judas Priest using Tom Allom as clear examples. It gives you another set of ears.....that are perhaps much more objective and unbiased than yours or those you surround yourself with.

I know that this is KD's baby. But sometimes you have to step away and change things up a bit. I own all his and MF's studio recordings. And honestly.....I'd like to hear something different that stretches his creative talents.....both from a writing a vocal perspective. Because at this stage.....I honestly don't want to hear more of the same no matter how cool the theme may be. It's been done over and over again and again.....similar to the James Bond franchise continuing to repeat themselves after while. There's only so many ways that you can re-invent yourself. And frankly.....I think KD's getting to that point. Maybe it's time to try something completely radical from what's he's done in the past.

What do I mean by radical? Playing it straight for a change.....base the theme around real-life occurences and events. Not make-believe. But the question is.....would 'you' the fans be ready for it? Would 'you' understand it? Nothing is worse than dumbing yourself down for the masses.....or being asked to be less than you are. That's weak. But are Judas Priest's fans ready for the Nostradamus album and tour? Perhaps. But once you pigeon-hole yourself into a certain style, you risk becoming a sterotype and parody of yourself. Maybe that's a reason that KD has never achieved strong international commercial success.....because his approach has been to appeal to a select fan-base like us.....and little else.

It's nice to have your loyal followers.....but why not try to broaden that fan-base? Then maybe he can go out on the road supporting a juggernaut like Priest or Maiden.....and introduce himself and his music to some brand new fans. I've never seen him......so it'd be an opportunity for fans like me who dig his sound.....but haven't been fortunate enough to check him out live. But as things are now.....he'll never play my town, as he doesn't have the following here. So I'm fucked.....like  alot of his fans are.....who want to see him. But until something happens.....he's a small-venue performer over on these shores with a limited audience.

IDK.....maybe I just think different than most people. I think in terms of 'possibilities' and opportunities.....as opposed to 'limitations' and 'obstacles.' Oh well.....there it is. In my world.....King Diamond is playing large arenas with the best of them!
« Last Edit: December 21, 2006, 12:23:35 pm by The Winnipeg Warrior ® »

Offline Tri Landau

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2006, 01:38:27 pm »
But once you pigeon-hole yourself into a certain style, you risk becoming a sterotype and parody of yourself. Maybe that's a reason that KD has never achieved strong international commercial success.....because his approach has been to appeal to a select fan-base like us.....and little else.

I think the reason is because most people find his voice and singing style annoying. It's much safer to listen to some wanna-be Bruce Dickinsons...

Offline Bloodfreak

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2006, 08:15:56 am »
I wish a rawer production, faster songs and a ghost story!! The sound has to be darker and colder (like Abigail or "Them")...the vocals would be great with a little reverb and that stuff. Also more effects (whisperings, laughter etc.) :king:

Offline Shadowswhisper

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2006, 04:21:58 pm »
Certainly a interesting topic. Would like to get the band all together some night sit everyone down and ask each member a particular direction each would think the next album should go in musically. Then when all can agree on one singular direction for the album i would ask each and every one to set aside any difference of taste and make the best efforts to create this album.

I would like Andy to write some great themes and more up tempo rhythm guitars for the tracks that king could sing well with. To allow kings vocals to produce a great spectrum of mood and harmony with the guitars i feel that would be most important.  Would like to hear Mike weads ideas on solos as well as him playing rhythm on certain tracks or in certain parts of any particular song.

As for Hal and Matt would like them to really work together in creating a powerful free flowing bass and drum work that goes along with the guitars as well as in certain instances goes off by itself and lights the tracks on fire with intricate bass lines and good old fashion double bass shuffles and ride cymbal work that would make Mikkey Dee proud  \m/

As for the lyrics well thats best left up to our most beloved King and all in all would want each musician to write and play heart and soul in a direction and with a sound and feeling each one can appreciate and agree on. And i think with everyones experience in music to set aside differences this would be the production of the next great album.


Stay heavy.  :king:
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Offline Buko

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2007, 12:36:06 am »
Well,i´d like to hear a more organic sound!I know times are over.Abigail had this killersound.This digital crap in these days kills a lot.

Offline Charcaroth

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Re: If you were the producer for the next KD album...
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2007, 07:26:16 am »
I miss the atmosphere.

The early albums were absolutely steeped in this arcane, eerie, foggy creepiness that rarely seems to emerge any more. There's a lot of bickering in metaldom over that, the "raw" sound versus the "polished" sound, and that's not exactly what I'm talking about. The sound of an album should be purely arranged to bring out the intent of the music, and a KD album should Never sound like it was recorded inside some room someplace. That really hurt my impression of Conspiracy when I first heard it, in fact, and I often wish that album had sounded more like Them, with the evocative usage of reverbs and echoes. King's vocals and the keyboards in particular on that album always sound naked to me. So the atmosphere is one thing.

Another is I'd really like to see all the members come together in she studio, rather than shipping things back and forth. Things happen when a group of musicians get together to work on material that simply don't happen with each member independantly adding their own bits and trying to coorespond meanwhile and work everything out. Ideas flow more freely, and an atmosphere of creativity manifests that allows for the ideas to grow into something truely great. Riffs are added upon and embellished, riff passages become more articulate, the music can readily be altered and adapted to better fit the lyrics, the lyrics can inspire the players to add new bits that drive the story home better, and on and on like that.

And this is more my own personal taste, but King and Fate have been regularly sited as a major influence on the development of black metal, so I've often wondered what would happen if a black metal influence crept into the sound of a King Diamond album.