Author Topic: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...  (Read 7543 times)

Offline zorrow

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About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« on: April 16, 2009, 07:31:22 am »
I've seen a lot of comments stating that MF stopped being "explicit" (about Satanism) from the 93 album on.

Frankly, to me that's pure BS! >:D

Firstly, there is art in being subtle. I really prefer implied or suggested messages, instead of explicit statements in black and white. Why? Well, because it takes some effort and talent to elaborate the former ones, while for the later ones you only need to be a little daring.

But secondly (and most importantly), MF is still very explicit in many ways since the "In the Shadows" album. Ok, I admit they stopped being openly blasphemous from that album on. Lyrics did turn into ghost and scary stories and got more "atmospheric"... but still "Thirteen Invitations" is quite unambiguous, right?

Then, "Time" came in and you can't be more explicit with a song like "Angel of Light".

Then, "Into the Unknown" opens with a prayer to "Lucifer" --wanna be more shocking than that?

Then, "Dead Again" arrived and it is a very dark album. The song with the same title talks about the Devil numbers and it's quite... menacing. And the opener, "Torture (1629)" is very graphical and also attacks the Church for their atrocities committed in the past.

And the following album, "9", is to me even more explicit! A song like "Sold my Soul" leaves no room for ambiguity...

All that said, I really appreciate the more poetic style of late MF and think it is very natural for them evolving from a very raw, primitive way of writing songs to a deeper, more philosophical and mature style. Aging does happen, and in this case I think it was for the better.

Yet, their rebellious message is still there --sometimes hidden, but always lurking... and that's why MF still got big balls to me.

Well, I've said! :) --sorry, it was a loooong post, I know... :)

Offline prhill

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2009, 07:41:30 am »
Good points.  King has said many times that he stopped using the word "Satan" and "lucifer" after MF broke up in 1985 because he got sick of explaining to everyone what it means to him which has nothing to do with the christian view everyone had back then.  So when he started King Diamond he tried not to use those words and instead would describe exactly the same things but in a different way.  And as he always says the King Diamond stuff is always more Satanic than the MF albums anyway. 

I think it's funny that if a band uses the word "Satan" the are suddenly Satanists, but then if they stop using that word like King did then suddenly they are not Satanists anymore, it is so stupid.  Even King has said he would laugh when fans came up to him after he stopped using that word and told him they were glad he was done with Satanism!  King would be like "what are you talking about, the stuff is the same, I am just doing it in a different way now"
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Offline CorpseWithoutASoul

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2009, 02:04:23 pm »
I can understand where the OP is soming from about subtlety being an art unto itself. Songs like Thirteen Invitations and Church of St. Anne are good examples of this. I agree w/ his analysis of the later MF albums though. Songs like Angel of Light and Sold My Soul leave little room for doubt of King's beliefs.

It's just that I think that some of MF's original hardcore fans were expecting the post reunion material to be every bit as explicit as the old stuff. That's kind of what drew us all to them in the first place. If there were to be any future MF albums released, as a hardcore fan I am hoping for more satanic styled songs like their classics such as Satan's Fall, Into the Coven, and Come to the Sabbath. Those kind of songs basically define to me what MF is all about. Namely songs about Satan, witchcraft and the occult in general as opposed to songs about ghost stories. Leave the ghost stories for KD solo work.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 02:15:16 pm by CorpseWithoutASoul »

Offline prhill

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2009, 02:13:58 pm »
corpse:  I could not agree more :)
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Offline Azalin

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2009, 02:46:35 pm »
It's just that I think that some of MF's original hardcore fans were expecting the post reunion material to be every bit as explicit as the old stuff. That's kind of what drew us all to them in the first place.

actually, some of us were just drawn to the music because of how original and powerful it was. the song Egypt is what called my attention to Mercyful Fate, and subsequently to King Diamond. that song has nothing explicit or satanic about it at all.....cool imagery certainly, but its mainly just a killer song with great musical and vocal performances. to make my point by way of a different example, take Frank Zappa for instance. I used to get a chuckle out of the dont eat the yellow snow or he thought he was a man but he was a muffin lyrics, but it was the originality and intensity of his music that made a fan out of me.....not how funny the lyrics were. the same thing is true for Mercyful Fate....if the lyrical content dealt with anything else, it would still have no effect on the originality and musicianship of Michael Denner or Hank Shermann or on Kings ability to write good music. I know we all have our own things that we like about all of Kings work, both early and new, but there are a few of us anyway who arent terribly interested one way or another in how dark or explicit the lyrics are.

« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 02:47:47 pm by Azalin »
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Offline KingOfTheRotten

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2009, 03:53:01 pm »
I don't think i can tell being a youngster and all but i think it's because it was the ninties, people expected him to be more ''evil'' than before due to the Black and Death Metal scene which had gotten a cult status at that point.

They thought he would be a part of that wave and he wasn't he did the same things just with other words, i fuckin love the newer MF albums!

Offline Tuwin

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2009, 03:54:12 pm »
I've never really heard anyone complaining about this

Offline KingOfTheRotten

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2009, 03:56:52 pm »
I've never really heard anyone complaining about this
neither have i, but i could guess some might have done

Offline Lucifers Mirror

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2009, 04:22:05 pm »
It's still a good conversation. In most MF songs, and King's lyrics too, Satan is never or rarely seen as a positive force. In songs like Sold My Soul, it doesn't sound like the whatever deal he made was really a good thing. Thirteen Invitations, every one loses except the devil. A Dangerous Meeting, same thing. In almost every case, the Big Bad Boogey Man gets you! The devil in KD/MF songs is NOT your friend. But here's the kicker: the human characters in the lyrics are even worse! Take the "satanic" forces in Them/Conspiracy for instance. Grandma, Mother, the Doctor and the Priest (all classically positive archetypes) end up causing more death and spilt blood than THEY ever did!

Here's something else to think about. Lots of songs by other mainstream/non-metal artists are about Satan or the Devil. The Devil Went Down To Georgia comes to mind. King's use of Satan as a character or metaphor has a long history, musically.
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Offline Maiden Jersey

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2009, 05:20:23 pm »
Well for me I could care less about how hardcore his lyrics are. Maybe I miss the metaphors in his work maybe I don't, all I know is that for me King Diamond is a storyteller and a great one at that. I really like the fact that some of his stuff has some "black" humor about it he cracks me up sometimes. :gah: I never once bought a MF/KD record because I knew there were satanic themes. That stuff really does not interest me at all but when King works it into the context of a song its great, more of a horror story but I am not going to get into that mess. :D
« Last Edit: April 17, 2009, 08:06:32 am by Maiden Jersey »

Offline CorpseWithoutASoul

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2009, 06:15:39 pm »
I likewise dig the new stuff. Personally I thought that 9 was the best MF album since DBTO. And it is definitely an explicit album. Just look at the lyrics of songs like Last Rites or Burn In Hell for example.


Don't misunderstand me. I'm not complaining about anything just vocalizing about which MF sings and concepts were some of my personal favs that's all. MF has a long discography and some of my fav songs were not necessarily Satanic in nature. The original MF EP is one of my all time favorites and it had great songs like Doomed By the Living Dead which is fantastic but more horror than satanic. And of course there is Return of the Vampire same kind of thing. Just great metal period.


Offline prhill

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2009, 07:13:59 am »
The funny thing is his most Satanic songs are the ones where he never uses the word Satan at all.  Funny note about the song "sold my soul" he said it is about the fact that no where does it say that you cannot sell someone else's soul.  King said that if christians really believe you can sell a soul to the Devil in return for something than in this song he is saying you know what you walk around all good and holy thinking you are going to heaven, but hey sorry I sold your soul too to get something in return too bad.

That being said I do know that a lot of people like it better when he uses that S word.  But it means nothing, Slayer and venom used it and they are not even Satanists, King is a Satanist whether he uses the word or not.   But as he said many times he stopped using that one word which to him he could use to describe so many things, but he stopped because of all of the negativity he got for it, so now he had to use many other words and ways to describe the exact same things he always was but could no longer do it with just the one word.
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Offline Huntsm├Žnus

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2009, 08:34:18 am »
What I enjoy most about MF/KD is their continuity. And both bands have it down pact. However, one does mature and grow. I have grown into an adult listening to both bands over two decades. And when I read that King's spirituality is in question or MF isn't blatant enough, it's just silly gossip. King and his mates are not 25. As much as they influenced a genre of music, personally they're older. Things change. Some things remain the same. But I can tell you that the music and the lyrics have grown wiser and more creative and clever and more horrific. We know who King is. He doesn't need to beat a dead horse.
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Offline lightninfeet

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2009, 10:19:34 am »
I listen to music with any kind of content, if the music is of my tatse.  It's a band.  It's the music that matters.  If you want content, read a book. If the music is to your liking, and you dig the content, well thats just a bonus.  :king:
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Offline Azalin

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2009, 12:21:48 pm »
I listen to music with any kind of content, if the music is of my tatse.  It's a band.  It's the music that matters.  If you want content, read a book. If the music is to your liking, and you dig the content, well thats just a bonus.  :king:
word  :cool:
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Offline Smechies

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2009, 10:57:00 am »
How dare they mature lyrically? They sold out, man!


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Offline prhill

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2009, 11:24:42 am »
All that matters is that he means what he is saying.  Many years ago when I did not know what Satanism even was people kept telling me that King was for real, and not a fake using Satanic imagery to sell records like other metal bands.  That made him seem so real to me, and it made the lyrics even more important knowing that he really meant it and believed and practiced it even though I had no idea what it was about yet.  Then when I did discover Satanism the lyrics seemed even more special as they made more sense at that point.
We created god in our own image, every idea about god has been created by humans afterall - King

Offline lightninfeet

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2009, 03:03:30 pm »
He could be talkin' about raping unicorns and monkey ears for all I care.  All that matters is that the music is good, because this is music we're talking about here.
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Offline zorrow

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2009, 04:52:11 pm »
Well, if only music mattered then King would just be humming, growling and screaming unintelligible sounds and we all would be very happy about it! :D

To me lyrics are very important too, and in the case of King, the storytelling component is a mandatory ingredient. After all, what would King Diamond be without his stories and all his Satanist and "horror movies" imagery?

Now about MF: I do understand that back in the nineties many people were expecting a more extreme output from the comeback. Instead of that, what we got was a (just slightly) rawer version of KD. I guess I can see why some hardcore MF fans could have felt betrayed.

But as some have pointed out, the band members were older at that point and "the teen disturbing his parents" thing was no longer fitting to them. In fact, MF has never been about just playing loud and fast and shouting "Blood!", "Satan!", "The Devil!" and "Hell!" in order to piss off (or shock) the neighbors. Nope!

Satanists "worship" human intelligence and rational self-improvement too. Therefore, I guess MF members never wanted a bunch of retarded headbangers as their followers. Their no-BS-but-still-ambitious music speaks for itself in favor to that. At the very end, to be true to Satanism, Satanist metal should be the ACTUAL "thinking man's metal" --instead of prog or "snobbish" metal, as some might believe.

So said, even if MF got certainly more "refined" and subtle after the comeback, IMHO by doing so they kept the real spirit of "Human Satanism" alive, which is aiming to be a smarter, a constantly-evolving and an intellectually superior human being.

Not that I care about it (because I am not a Satanist), but for those who actually care I frankly don't see any reason to complain then.

Offline prhill

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2009, 07:21:35 am »
WRTN Radio interview: Host: King a lot of people noticed that you dropped a lot of the Satanic Lyrics after Mercyful and started King Diamond, is that true with the new album "Them" do you mention Satan or is it up to the listener?

King" well we have not mentioned Satan since Fatal Portrait but to say that we are not doing Satanic Stuff is in my opinion very wrong, most people do not know what Satanism is about and it is not about being evil, it is about the Powers of the Unknown and we are still writting about that especially on this new album.

book "Lucifer Rising" by Church of Satan Gavin Baddelley - Why did the Satanic element in your music take a back seat when you formed King Diamond?

King: thats not true, you do not hear the word Satan anymore but the lyrics are the same part from we started doing concept stories.  I got tired of explaing that Satan is not about death and evil.  The word "Satan" to me stand for the powers of the unknown or the powers of darkness that are all around us.  I know their are powers around us and I see the spirits as my protectors almost as guardian angels and I feel comfortable knowing that they are still around me
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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2009, 11:42:11 am »
Here are the facts, MF RULES!  :D  :king:

Offline prhill

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2009, 07:14:21 am »
Here are the facts, MF RULES!
I cannot argue with that.  And I really miss them :(
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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2009, 08:21:59 pm »
MF will be back soon! Its gonna be awesome!  \m/

Offline undeadbob

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2009, 11:00:33 pm »
He could be talkin' about raping unicorns and monkey ears for all I care.  All that matters is that the music is good, because this is music we're talking about here.
well put

Offline prhill

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Re: About the post-93 "MF not being explicit enough" BS...
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2009, 08:28:37 am »
MF will be back soon! Its gonna be awesome! 
Something to look forward too! :)
We created god in our own image, every idea about god has been created by humans afterall - King