Author Topic: Can we be honest for a second?  (Read 28980 times)

Offline towpath

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Re: Can we be honest for a second?
« Reply #75 on: July 21, 2011, 10:38:20 pm »
My bad.

I cannot agree with this. Matt is the band's best drummer SINCE the days of Mikkey Dee. I saw Matt on tour, too. And I believed he did an admiral job of aping Dee and doing his own thing, too. It's extremely confusing to me when I hear of the superfluous criticism targeted towards Matt. Brings up bad flashbacks of when someone accused him of using a drum machine in Abigail II and GMYS...P...

Since I just joined this forum I can't really say if this criticism is superfluous, because I haven't been around to read the other posts. But if a lot of people are criticising him, shouldn't that tell you something? I haven't heard Abigail II, so I can't comment. But the drum sounds on GMYS...P sound very triggered. This means that they don't use the sound of his actual drums, they use samples of another drum set. This saves time on setting up mics in the studio to get actual acoustic sounds (because someone has already spent the time building the sample set). There is a fine line between a drum machine and triggers/Pro Tools these days. With triggers you can play very sloppy and fix all your mistakes on the computer by just sliding the notes with a mouse. But you end up getting a very mechanical feel, this can also happen playing to a click track.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 10:56:57 pm by towpath »

Offline towpath

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Re: Can we be honest for a second?
« Reply #76 on: July 21, 2011, 10:56:02 pm »
True and not true.

Mikkey Dee himself didn't even play his own drum parts "correctly" live. Much like Eddie Van Halen never plays "Eruption" exactly the same either (back when he could still play), most musicians will change and add as they go along to inject the song with whatever feels right for the moment. Just as Mikkey would add and remove parts when he played live as well, so is Matt trying to make the songs his own in his way. Deep Purple with Blackmoore and Deep Purple with Morse is an example of two vastly different guitar players playing the same songs, but in their own way. Music history has tons of other examples: Brian Johnson taking over Bon Scott's songs and making them his own, Steve Vai playing Malmsteen's "Hiroshima MonAmour" totally different after replacing him in Alcatrazz etc. To think each musician would just copy the previous one's performance is a very non-musician-like point of view. Matt's style is a lot stiffer than Mikkey's, but to say he's crap is just not an accurate description of his qualities. He is very talented and as I've stated before, I think King would benefit from letting his drummer be an active part of the creative process when writing and recording the next album, as most metal bands with a more complex song structure do (even though KD has strayed FAR from the realm of complexities - partly because of this, I am sure).

Also, YouTube is a breeding ground for people copying, note for note, their idols' musical performances. There are some great drum videos of guys doing "Invisible Guests", great guitarists playing "Far Beyond the Sun" better than Yngwie and Korean kids playing "Mr Crowley" better than Randy Rhoades ever did. It's like comparing apples and oranges, though. One is a creative process and the other is like painting by numbers.

Does anyone know how old Matt is? I guess all I'm trying to say is that I'm not a fan of his style. Mikkey Dee was influenced by 70s rock drummers like Ian Paice from Deep Purple. Matt sounds like he's influenced by Vinnie Paul from Pantera or someone more new school that relies too much on double bass. If you watch the original promo video for "Welcome Home", you see Mikkey Dee playing the intro on the toms (triplets I believe), on the "Deadly Lullabyes" album (and from what I remember seeing live) Matt just plays double bass drums. Even his live drums sound triggered.

You'll have to post a link to these videos of people playing better than Yngwie and Rhoads (no "e"), I looked but couldn't find them.

I do agree with most of what you're saying though.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 10:58:55 pm by towpath »

Offline Grace

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Re: Can we be honest for a second?
« Reply #77 on: July 22, 2011, 05:46:23 am »

You'll have to post a link to these videos of people playing better than Yngwie and Rhoads (no "e"), I looked but couldn't find them.



Well those were just examples plucked from a hat, but I am nothing if not good on my word; I'll give you a double whammy that I found:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xMpVGG8zPc - Mr Crowley spin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eco2PvdzBI - And the original Randy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np3O1e42GmQ&feature=related - Same guy playing Yngwie (even though Yngwie up until and including "Trilogy" was untouchable)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK0rvReE-4c&feature=related - Compare to Yngwie himself, who has changed his own licks considerably over the years. This is actually an unusally good version.

Point is, both Malmsteen and Rhoads are/were a little "sloppy" sometimes, but that is what adds to their sound - whereas the guys who copy them tend to come off sounding a little clinical. I am sure there are tons of other examples, but you get my point. If you are filling somebody else's shoes you had better change things around a little and make it your own, or the comparisons will be unnecessarily inevitable. Mikkey is by far my favorite drummer of all time, but Matt is doing a good job live for King these days.
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Offline Maiden Jersey

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Re: Can we be honest for a second?
« Reply #78 on: July 22, 2011, 06:51:57 am »
Matt sounds like he's influenced by Vinnie Paul from Pantera or someone more new school that relies too much on double bass.

You just dont know Matt, checkout Caspian Seashore or Shaolin Death Squad. Matt can really play anything and any style (not just jazz or metal). You can say what you want about his drumming or whatever but I know first hand how good of a drummer he really is , you have no clue. Sure Dee was amazing no doubt but his timing was not the greatest live and if you ask me that is really important if you play drums.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 07:11:20 am by Maiden Jersey »

Offline Azalin

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Re: Can we be honest for a second?
« Reply #79 on: July 22, 2011, 09:41:13 am »
.....but his timing was not the greatest live and if you ask me that is really important if you play drums.
yep. for a drummer, timing is everything:cool:
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Offline Maiden Jersey

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Re: Can we be honest for a second?
« Reply #80 on: July 22, 2011, 09:45:32 am »
yep. for a drummer, timing is everything:cool:

Yeah it kinda puts a monkey wrench into your live gig when your drummer is wavy gravy or plays everything 3 times faster or slower. :gah:

Offline Mohican

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Re: Can we be honest for a second?
« Reply #81 on: July 22, 2011, 09:49:39 am »
Sure Dee was amazing no doubt but his timing was not the greatest live and if you ask me that is really important if you play drums.

That`s actually interesting  - I`ve never heard this before. Is there maybe some video footage around where his issues with timing stand out? Just curious.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 09:52:34 am by Mohican »
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Offline Maiden Jersey

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Re: Can we be honest for a second?
« Reply #82 on: July 22, 2011, 09:58:05 am »
That`s actually interesting  - I`ve never heard this before. Is there maybe some video footage around where his issues with timing stand out? Just curious.

He just played everything slow or fast or at some unknown tempo just search youtube. Thats why motorhead is a great fit for him, everything is fast haha. :gah:

Offline Mohican

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Re: Can we be honest for a second?
« Reply #83 on: July 22, 2011, 10:03:28 am »
Well I`ve always thought that Dee wastes his talent in Motörhead...but now it maybe starts making sense  :D :gah:
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Offline Maiden Jersey

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Re: Can we be honest for a second?
« Reply #84 on: July 22, 2011, 10:08:33 am »
Well I`ve always thought that Dee wastes his talent in Motörhead...but now it maybe starts making sense  :D :gah:

Don't get me wrong Dee is one of the best drummers around but it just seems like he played everything really fast where as Matt is like a human metronome his playing is really tight live. I would not have wanted anyone else to play on the albums that MD played on other than MD! On the flip side of that I think Matt does a great job on the stuff Dee and others wrote. I have a feeling that the next album is going to shut everyone up with everything. Look at the big picture you have one of the best backing bands in metal with King at the helm. All of the members are really talented at what they do.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 01:33:35 pm by Maiden Jersey »

Offline towpath

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Re: Can we be honest for a second?
« Reply #85 on: July 22, 2011, 04:39:09 pm »
Well those were just examples plucked from a hat, but I am nothing if not good on my word; I'll give you a double whammy that I found:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xMpVGG8zPc - Mr Crowley spin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eco2PvdzBI - And the original Randy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np3O1e42GmQ&feature=related - Same guy playing Yngwie (even though Yngwie up until and including "Trilogy" was untouchable)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK0rvReE-4c&feature=related - Compare to Yngwie himself, who has changed his own licks considerably over the years. This is actually an unusally good version.

Point is, both Malmsteen and Rhoads are/were a little "sloppy" sometimes, but that is what adds to their sound - whereas the guys who copy them tend to come off sounding a little clinical. I am sure there are tons of other examples, but you get my point. If you are filling somebody else's shoes you had better change things around a little and make it your own, or the comparisons will be unnecessarily inevitable. Mikkey is by far my favorite drummer of all time, but Matt is doing a good job live for King these days.

i see your point, but anyone can play better while sitting down than standing up. I'd like to see him play that well 6 songs into a live set with sweaty fingers. it's very technically impressive, but it definitely lacks the emotion and feeling. i saw a live video of that kid playing in some sort of guitar hero competition. Not sure if he had written the song he was performing, but it was very boring.

Offline towpath

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Re: Can we be honest for a second?
« Reply #86 on: July 22, 2011, 05:07:21 pm »
You just dont know Matt, checkout Caspian Seashore or Shaolin Death Squad. Matt can really play anything and any style (not just jazz or metal). You can say what you want about his drumming or whatever but I know first hand how good of a drummer he really is , you have no clue. Sure Dee was amazing no doubt but his timing was not the greatest live and if you ask me that is really important if you play drums.

I saw Matt play an entire set in 2003, so I think I have a clue. I listened to a few songs of Shaolin Death Squad on youtube, the only Caspian Seashore stuff seemed to be solo acoustic guitar stuff. I played in a similar band to Shaolin in 2002 (heavily influenced by Estradasphere, Secret Chiefs 3, Mr. Bungle, etc) called Ad Hoc Theory...

http://www.myspace.com/adhoctheorybuffalo

our drummer (RIP) was very technically proficient too, but stiff and lacking that 70s rock drumming groove that Mikkey has. It's like when Mike Bordin and Robert Trujillo re-recorded the drums and bass for "Blizzard" and "Diary". They can play all the same notes, but the feeling isn't right because Lee Kerslake and Bob Daisley were prog rock/fusion masters that played in Uriah Heep.

You'll have to post this video of Mikkey Dee's fluctuating tempo.

Offline Maiden Jersey

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Re: Can we be honest for a second?
« Reply #87 on: July 22, 2011, 06:34:31 pm »
I saw Matt play an entire set in 2003, so I think I have a clue. I listened to a few songs of Shaolin Death Squad on youtube, the only Caspian Seashore stuff seemed to be solo acoustic guitar stuff. I played in a similar band to Shaolin in 2002 (heavily influenced by Estradasphere, Secret Chiefs 3, Mr. Bungle, etc) called Ad Hoc Theory...

http://www.myspace.com/adhoctheorybuffalo

our drummer (RIP) was very technically proficient too, but stiff and lacking that 70s rock drumming groove that Mikkey has. It's like when Mike Bordin and Robert Trujillo re-recorded the drums and bass for "Blizzard" and "Diary". They can play all the same notes, but the feeling isn't right because Lee Kerslake and Bob Daisley were prog rock/fusion masters that played in Uriah Heep.

You'll have to post this video of Mikkey Dee's fluctuating tempo.

Okay so you have seen him play a set so have I and I have also recorded with him. As far as MD goes just search youtube or go see him play live (maybe you have ? ) and you will realize he plays most of his stuff fast. I am not saying he does it all the time but if you are comparing him to Matt, Matt has better timing. Man, I am a sucker for these threads I just cant feed the fire anymore... Grace made some valid points in this topic and hopefully he gets to ask king all the questions that he has but I am NOT getting into the drummer debate again sorry Mr. Towpath.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 08:51:49 pm by Maiden Jersey »

Offline Maiden Jersey

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Re: Can we be honest for a second?
« Reply #88 on: July 22, 2011, 08:56:53 pm »