Author Topic: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...  (Read 47860 times)

Offline Spooky Bat

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Let me preface this by stating that MOST extreme diehard fans will NOT have enough of an open mind to even give credence to what I'm going to state.  I understand that.  I also understand that quite a lot of people don't have the ability to discern the difference between real and programmed drums, or just don't care.  And, I totally expect a plethora of responses saying inane things from those whom refuse to even TRY to listen for what I'm going to describe.  Suffice it to say...


THESE ARE NOT REAL DRUMS ON "GIMME YOUR SOUL" REGARDLESS OF WHAT MR. DIAMOND STATES.  FACT.

I'm SO tired of people using programs like "Drumkit From Hell" and their ilk (and drum machines just a few years ago) to program drums on metal albums. They are INSTANTLY recognizable. And, they suck. Fake.

Other bands that have done this lately...Exodus, Black Label Society, and Megadeth...the list goes on an on.

Don't believe me? Then you don't have the ears to tell the difference.  Or, you refuse to LET yourself hear it.

It's easiest to tell on the King albums, such as "The Puppet Master" and "Abigail II." King forgot to turn off the fake tambourine click track that goes along with EVERY song (he forgot to turn it off on several parts of the new album as well). Combine this with the by the book drum beat and cymbal hits (cymbal hits which have NO variation in amplitude, pitch, modulation, or sound variance AT ALL) and this is a no-brainer. And, it's not the fact that it may be triggered.  These drums have NOT been "played" by a human.  No drummer does such insane footwork combined with the most simple laid back hi-hat and snare beats.  Not real. Not played.

Listen to the hi-hats on any more recent albums by King and these bands listed above...every hit sounds exactly the same. For example, it's funny on the Black Label songs...where the hi-hat is programmed to "close," they mistakenly forgot to omit the actual "open" hi-hat sound sample after the "closed" hi-hat sound is triggered. If this were a real hi-hat, the "open" sound would STOP completely when the hi-hat was "closed." This doesn't happen. This is impossible on real drums. The recent King albums exhibit this, but much to much less extent.  King, or whomever programs his drums, is better at it than a lot of others. 

I digress...don't try to go the "OK, they may be samples but they are actually played and triggered" LAME cop-out argument.  If they WERE actually played, they would SOUND played, regardless of triggers...it's the WAY they are programmed that gives it away. They are always programmed in such a way that (for example) the cymbal hits give it away...no drummer EVER plays the way they are programmed on the albums.  The drums are programmed in the most basic way possible. It's a ridiculous conundrum...the bass drums are programmed usually with super fast super heavy double bass classic metal beats and fills, but the hi-hats, snare, cymbals, and ride are programmed to do the most simple, trite, straight elementary beats that only a non-drummer would program (similar to a straight beat on a drum machine for guitar players to solo over).  Listen to an album with verifiable REAL drums (old King albums for example, Slayer, Rush, Tommy Aldridge...hell, ANYTHING before programming began) and you will INSTANTLY hear what I'm talking about.  There's nuance.  There's a slightly different tone in EVERY cymbal, snare, ride, and hi-hat hit.  And, the snare rolls DON'T DOUBLE UP (cough, cough, cough...) on fast fills. 

A great example again is how the cymbals are programmed, where cymbals hit ALWAYS at the same time at the end of a measure (what drummer ONLY hits cymbals the SAME way in EVERY song at the END of EVERY measure?), snare rolls are totally mechanical with no feeling, and some fills are just SO basic that you think, "Wait, no GOOD drummer would EVER just do that." On this album, when the little super fast double bass comes in at the end of one of the songs, the handwork going on at the SAME TIME sounds like Ringo Starr with his hands taped together; it's THAT basic.  What drummer have you EVER heard go absolute balls-out NUTS with his feet would do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING with his hands at the same time???!?!!?  It's appalling...nothing short of hip-hop could sound any more fake.

The SOUND of the digital samples is decent...but they need to be programmed by a drummer who has a clue of HOW a real drummer plays in a metal context...simply programming complicated bass drum beats whilst leaving everything else programmed to sound LIKE A DRUM MACHINE of the 80's does NOT cut it.  And again, that fake tamborine click track!!!!

These bands will NEVER admit to using drum programmers/machines. King still denies it (he even still tries to state the horrendous "drums" on "The Eye" were actually played on an electronic kit which is total BS...those drum sounds were programmed on a primitive digital machine). The last several King albums have had programmed drums, and while 1000% better than the "Eye" drums, they still sound 100% fake...and King wonders why everyone lusts for the days of Mikkey Dee's REAL drum fills. People CAN tell the difference...if they just think and LISTEN for themselves and not believe everything they are told and spoon-fed as fact.  There's a reason people want Mikkey Dee back, and it's NOT only because of his unique playing ability...it's because he plays like a HUMAN, not a program. Most won't let themselves hear it or realize it, but all you have to do is listen closely...again, NO drummer actually plays like the programmed drums on these recent albums. But, it's more cost effective to program in these trying times for artists.  However, we're on to you King...just admit these are programmed drums. These are NOT actually played. Simple to tell.  Bands and artists such as King "credit" a drummer simply because they don't want to lose "metal cred" by admitting to using cost-cutting programmed drums. King would NEVER admit it...and it's at least common knowledge nowadays regarding "The Eye" (even though some idiots still refuse to believe it). Again, King has many complaining about the absence of Mikkey Dee...but, ANY drummer actually PLAYING DRUMS on ANY of his last several releases would quelch some of these complaints. The difference between Dee and King's current programmed drums is simply enhanced 1000-fold by the fact that not only are the drum "lines" not imaginative (regardless of the complexity of the bass drum programmed lines and runs), but they're not even played by a human and thusly lack that elusive intimate feel...they don't grab you. People actually PLAYING is what music should be. This is a bad trend.

It is MUCH cheaper to program the drums for an "artist." However, REAL drums can have just as much feel as a good soulful guitar solo. A good analogy would be...what if the guitar solos were replaced by midi file programmed guitar solos that emulated amplified guitar sounds? No feeling would result...and it's the same with all these bands using these cheezy programmed drums inserted via ProTools.  There's no FEELING or EMOTION in these programmed drums.  Drums are MORE than just a beat to play guitar and bass over.  (And no, I'm not a drummer.)

I yearn for the good old days when even if a band, album or a drummer sucked (i.e., someone like Randy Castillo, RIP), at least it was a REAL human with a REAL style (albeit a bad one) that you could IDENTIFY.

The new ProTools recording style and fake programmed drums RUIN music. NO soul whatsoever. "Gimme Your Soul, Please"??  Yes, King, PLEASE give us some SOUL in the DRUMMING of your albums, NOT the PROGRAMMING.

How can hardly anyone else NOT be bothered by this?  Open your ears. You'll be surprised by what you realize you are (and aren't) hearing.



« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 10:29:30 am by Spooky Bat »

Offline Beelzebub

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2007, 10:31:24 am »
Wow! Talk about a first post!
I can't agree or disagree since I haven't recieved the cd yet.
I would like to read Matt's comments on this though.
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Offline maarten.

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2007, 10:34:31 am »
yep, i'm also very curious, neverending hill didn't sound that unnatural to me, but it was just an mp3 ofcourse, we'll see :P

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Offline Ahh, Conspiracy

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2007, 10:38:44 am »
Andy Sneap replied to your complaints on the Megadeth Forums, lol he was not happy  :fingers:
:king:

Offline maarten.

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2007, 10:41:00 am »
hihi, still will become a funny tread i think :P

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Offline Spooky Bat

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2007, 10:43:01 am »
I'm not trying to enflame anyone, or hurt anyone's feelings.  I just want to open people's eyes (and EARS) to this trend.  If you can NOT tell the difference, fine.  However, how many of us have long noticed *something* not quite right about the drums on Kings last handful of albums?  That HUMAN element is missing.  If you can NOT hear that fake tamborine click-track (especially on the previous two albums where it NEVER STOPS) then you simply don't have the ability (or care) to tell the difference, which is fine.  Just try to be objective about it.  It's cut and dry. However, certain producers and artists will argue it til the death.  Some things you don't admit in "metal-dom."

Offline Nefarious_Priest

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2007, 10:44:10 am »
Hmm this is interesting.. I heard people say the drums on Blind Guardian's single "Fly" were programmed and when i heard them for the life of me i couldn't tell. And i am a drummer. I always thought things like you were saying about the hi hat, i thought those things just happened because the drummers were THAT fucking good but very interesting read there. I can't comment because i haven't heard the album and i'm not good at telling the difference between programmed and human drums.

I wanna join the Megadeth forums lol  :gah:
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Offline Maiden Jersey

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2007, 10:46:18 am »

 These drums have NOT been "played" by a human.  No drummer does such insane footwork combined with the most simple laid back hi-hat and snare beats.  Not real. Not played.

um...maybe the drums were triggered but matt ( the HUMAN) played them , as far as the bass drum beats go good drummers can do that , listen to Opeth ,Hate Eternal, Dennis Chambers, Iron Maiden, the list goes on and on. Why do you care so much?

edit on a side note the drummer in my band can play like that and he does everytime we jam, no triggers no nothing it can be done.

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« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 01:03:45 pm by Maiden Jersey »

Offline Spooky Bat

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2007, 10:50:27 am »
Maiden...I NEVER stated or meant to imply that ANYTHING that the drums are programmed to do on the albums are HARD or IMPOSSIBLE for a real drummer to actually play.  I never stated that.  Of course any competent metal drummer would absolutely KILL the programmed drums on this new album (or ANY programmed metal album's drums).  You're trying to argue something that I AGREE with you on.  Nothing on this King album would be hard for a REAL drummer to play.  I don't know how you deduced what you did out of my post.  I was addressing the fact that if a drummer is absolutely killing with his feet (again I didn't say anything about anyone NOT BEING ABLE TO DO THIS) his hands aren't going to be doing the most elementary snare and hi-hat 4/4 beat at the same time his feet are going balls out nutso.  Listen to a REAL drummer's recordings like Gene Hoglan.  When HIS feet go nuts, his hands ALSO go nuts.  99% of drummers do.  I was pointing out a PROGRAMMING discrepancy and anomality.

And, I already addressed the "triggered" excuse...it's not the TONE per say of the drums, but the METHOD and STYLE of the programmed drum parts.  THIS is what gives it away.  The fact that this is NOT how a human would play.  If it were a HUMAN playing TRIGGERED drums, it would SOUND like it had been physically PLAYED how an actual drummer executes his parts.  The actual drum parts themselves are what gives it away that this in fact is NOT a human.  I realize this is hard for metal fans to accept.  However, regarding your arguments with my post, you're missing the point.  Please re-read my first post competently.

If you want to hear examples of what I'm talking about, you do NOT have to listen to the new album.  Listen to Abigail II or Puppet Master.  Those are even MORE fake sounding (especially Abigail II) than the new album.  Listen closely.  Once you "get it," you will find it difficult to listen to an entire album of the EXACT same programming techniques and style.  It's kinda like when bad MP3's first came out.  At first, they sounded OK.  Then, after about a day, I noticed this strange fluttery sound over the music.  I wondered, "What the hell is this?  It's on every song!" and once digital artifacts became known and more common, now I instantly recognize them and they grate on my nerves INSTANTLY to the point where I can't hardly listen to a poor MP3.  EVERYONE knows this "fluttery" artifact sound I'm talking about, NOW.  When it first appeared, it wasn't as noticable.  Now, everyone can notice it.  This is the same manner in which the programmed drums STICK OUT to me now.  Not that they flutter or have digital artifacts (I used that as an example), but just the fact that they have DISTINCT CHARACTERISTICS in the way they are programmed that make them stick out like a sore thumb.  
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 11:04:55 am by Spooky Bat »

Offline Ahh, Conspiracy

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2007, 10:52:06 am »
So what if the tambourine is fake? it doesn't mean the drums are.
If you know the drummers style in say.. Exodus, you can tell it's fucking Tom Hunting.  :cool:

Quote from: andy sneap
this guys totally talking out of his ass.

 :king:
:king:

Offline Spooky Bat

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2007, 10:56:57 am »
I never stated that because the tamborine is fake the other drums are fake as well.  Sure, they could have used a fake tamborine click track and played real drums over it.  I wish they had.  But, they hadn't. 

Again, I NEVER stated that the tamborine was the REASON that the drums are fake.  I merely used it as an example.

And, as I properly predicted, producers such as Andy Sneap of course won't admit to programming on a metal album, and will dance around the issue with excuses.  I haven't read any of the Megadeth forums since I've NEVER been to one, but apparently I touched a nerve which triggered a defensive response somewhere.  I read on an Amazon review response somewhere that Andy Sneap stated that the Megadeth drums were recorded on John Bonham's old kit...um yeah, OK.  We'll buy that.  Yeah, those sound EXACTLY like Bonham's drums.  Even SHEEP don't baaa THAT easily.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 11:01:56 am by Spooky Bat »

Offline Maiden Jersey

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2007, 11:01:59 am »
okay so they may have went over the drums in pro tools or what have you, so what they want it to sound good. I much rather have a programmed snare here or there than have the album sound like wavy gravy.Matt will kill it live and it will sound great you cant blame a band for wanting their album to sound good. As long as it sounds good or better live there is no problem.

Offline Ahh, Conspiracy

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2007, 11:04:48 am »
I never stated that because the tamborine is fake the other drums are fake as well.  Sure, they could have used a fake tamborine click track and played real drums over it.  I wish they had.  But, they hadn't. 

Again, I NEVER stated that the tamborine was the REASON that the drums are fake.  I merely used it as an example.

And, as I properly predicted, producers such as Andy Sneap of course won't admit to programming on a metal album, and will dance around the issue with excuses.  I haven't read any of the Megadeth forums since I've NEVER been to one, but apparently I touched a nerve which triggered a defensive response somewhere.  I read on an Amazon review response somewhere that Andy Sneap stated that the Megadeth drums were recorded on John Bonham's old kit...um yeah, OK.  We'll buy that.  Yeah, those sound EXACTLY like Bonham's drums.  Even SHEEP don't baaa THAT easily.

There is even footage of Shawn of Megadeth recording the drums, there will be a making of the album too sooner or later.
:king:

Offline Spooky Bat

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2007, 11:06:23 am »
Maiden, I agree Matt is unreal live.  Just imagine how AMAZING the King albums would be if MATT played live, real drums and SLAMMED it when the albums were recorded! 

Offline Huntsm├Žnus

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2007, 11:06:39 am »
Hmmmmm. First three posts  and this thread down play the new release. Hey, everybody can their opinion. But since I haven't heard it yet, I guess I shouldn't say anything. Howver, the drum tracks on both Abigail II and the Puppet Master sounded convincing to me(played by a human, that is). And Matt's live performances only reinforces that he performed the drums on both releases. I'm sure there are things that the laymen and even talented musicians don't need to know every little detail was done to make this album or any. I guess the question, to youSpooky Bat, is do you feel cheated?
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Offline Tri Landau

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2007, 11:07:32 am »
Spooky Bat, are you sure that the problem is not in YOUR ears? I have drums, and drum module (Alesis DM5) with triggers, and fast doublebass does sound like a machine, and snare rolls too, even if I am the drummer who plays. I also have a drum machine, and sometimes it sounds less machine than triggered real drums.

Offline ranchersuezo

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2007, 11:09:38 am »
okay so they may have went over the drums in pro tools or what have you, so what they want it to sound good. I much rather have a programmed snare here or there than have the album sound like wavy gravy.Matt will kill it live and it will sound great you cant blame a band for wanting their album to sound good. As long as it sounds good or better live there is no problem.

thank you for that.  i couldnt have said it better myself.
no

Offline Spooky Bat

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2007, 11:13:22 am »
No, I don't feel cheated.  And, the defensive responses are expected.  It's hard to accept on a metal album.


I'm familiar with the Alesis DM-5, DM-Pro, HR-16, and SR-16.  I'm also aware of techniques and tricks in programming drums to TRY to minimize the "fakeness" of them.  None of this is my ears; I am basing this on 19 years of recording drums, programming drums, and playing an actual drum machine in real time.  You learn idiocyncrasies of these machines and computer programs and thus become able to INSTANTLY pick out and notice said unique qualities.  And yes, I am troubled by the dumbing down and "assembled" quality of recent recorded music.  I'm a big fan of music made and recorded by HUMANS playing.

Offline Ahh, Conspiracy

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2007, 11:15:07 am »
One question.. do you have a life?

:king:

Offline Spooky Bat

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2007, 11:15:15 am »
And again, if you don't CARE that they are programmed...how would you feel if the guitar solos were programmed as well?  

Offline Spooky Bat

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2007, 11:16:16 am »
One question.. do you have a life?




Responses like this are expected, fanboi.

Offline Nefarious_Priest

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2007, 11:17:12 am »
Damn all this on his first post, this topic is gonna receive posts all night.
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Offline Ahh, Conspiracy

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2007, 11:19:16 am »

Responses like this are expected, fanboi.

FanbOi? ehm.. ya.. ok.. so.. ahh..
That fanboy crap is for 14-year olds, so fuck off.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 11:29:33 am by Ahh, Conspiracy »
:king:

Offline maarten.

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2007, 11:29:39 am »
common people, let's keep it civilised, it would be ashamed that this tread would get locked for some random flaming...

None of this is my ears; I am basing this on 19 years of recording drums, programming drums, and playing an actual drum machine in real time.  You learn idiocyncrasies of these machines and computer programs and thus become able to INSTANTLY pick out and notice said unique qualities.  And yes, I am troubled by the dumbing down and "assembled" quality of recent recorded music.  I'm a big fan of music made and recorded by HUMANS playing.

haha, okay, so it's 'profession deformity' (sorry, i don't know if that's a English word :P). i have the same, every time i see a building plan, i don't see the plan, i see the way it is drawn, i see the tricks they've used, what program, i see what faults they made and stuff like that. a 'normal' person don't see those things at all, but one who's in it for years can see it immediately and get bothered by such things.

so for me, as a normal music listener, i hear nothing wrong on TPM or AII and if you didn't say this, i would have never know that they were programmed (if they are programmed that is :fingers: )

lets see what King of Matt himself has to say about this

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Offline Tri Landau

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Re: Sorry, but these are NOT REAL DRUMS regardless of what KING says...
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2007, 11:35:39 am »

Responses like this are expected, fanboi.
As was yours... "I've done this and that so many years blaah blaah, you don't know nothing I know everything" ::)